First, if you don't mind, let me ask a question, miah66, to see where you are coming from. What are your thoughts on maintaining non-system trails? is it desirable? is it legal? If desirable, should the "old trails lost to lack of maintenance" be restored through advocacy or stewardship?
I'm undecided about the desirability. There are pros and cons and I'm happy that there are people on both sides debating the issue. As you may have picked up, I have a high tolerance for protracted debates [insert qualifiers here].
I think non-system trail stewardship of any kind is illegal. I'm thinking of a particular court case about a user foot-path that I found through the law library a few years ago when the legality question first came up. I'll see about looking it up again. Hey, maybe I'll have to eat crow! Still, I've no problem with civil disobedience as long as it is done above board, and I think many people have no problem with it. But not all. That is why prospective donors deserve to know.
As a side note, I was unable to find during my law search any prosecutions of system-trails.
As another side note, just to be clear, I believe that "TKO’s founding stewardship trip in September 2007" on Vista Ridge was done legally because it was a system trail in 2007, per grannyhiker's post on this thread. I believe her. I think the work was legal, and I applaud the hard work that it must have taken to reopen it.
Anyway, to get back to the question, what are your thoughts, miah66, on maintaining non-system trails? is it desirable? is it legal? If desirable, should they be restored through advocacy or stewardship?
2012-09-06 Old Vista Ridge Trail to Owl Point and Perry Lake
Re: 2012-09-06 Old Vista Ridge Trail to Owl Point and Perry
First, IIRC every post I have read by mcds has been well thought out and has raised good points. With references. Assertions by anyone without citation are just that. They may be believable or not, but there is no way to double-check the sniff detector. Too often on the web asserted facts conveniently back claims. Urban myths at best.
Second, I have given much thought to the saving of old trails. I would prefer it if they were marked in the traditional way, but otherwise minimally maintained. Too many hikers, not enough peaceful areas for critters. Certainly no excuse for bringing such trails to current FS standards. Hikers do not need roads, nor new tread.
Third, trip reports on such trails are reasonable; discussion of potentially illegal.activities is silly, implicates the site and is an admission of guilt. One person's flagging is another person's litter. Please don't. GPS tracks should suffice, and can be published in a trip report.
This above is opinion, so no citations needed or provided.
Second, I have given much thought to the saving of old trails. I would prefer it if they were marked in the traditional way, but otherwise minimally maintained. Too many hikers, not enough peaceful areas for critters. Certainly no excuse for bringing such trails to current FS standards. Hikers do not need roads, nor new tread.
Third, trip reports on such trails are reasonable; discussion of potentially illegal.activities is silly, implicates the site and is an admission of guilt. One person's flagging is another person's litter. Please don't. GPS tracks should suffice, and can be published in a trip report.
This above is opinion, so no citations needed or provided.
- Grannyhiker
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Re: 2012-09-06 Old Vista Ridge Trail to Owl Point and Perry
Just to point out that the Old Vista Ridge trail was still on the trail inventory (although listed as unmaintained) in 2007 and at that time was not in a wilderness area! My understanding at the time of the trail clearing party was that we were not doing anything illegal, and this was confirmed by an attorney present. Also, if my memory is correct, TKO had not yet been organized.
The fact that this trail is now listed in several guidebooks should persuade the USFS to put it back on their list instead of posting threatening signs!
The fact that this trail is now listed in several guidebooks should persuade the USFS to put it back on their list instead of posting threatening signs!
- retired jerry
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Re: 2012-09-06 Old Vista Ridge Trail to Owl Point and Perry
I liked that it was on the list of closed trails during the Dollar Lake fire
Re: 2012-09-06 Old Vista Ridge Trail to Owl Point and Perry
Triple like! (and I am one of the ones who does not wish for a "like" button on PH!)retired jerry wrote:I liked that it was on the list of closed trails during the Dollar Lake fire
Some people are really fit at eighty; thankfully I still have many years to get into shape…
- Splintercat
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Re: 2012-09-06 Old Vista Ridge Trail to Owl Point and Perry
...well, they had to "close" it for the fire, what with it showing up here:
...and here:
....on their official Forest Service maps....
...and here:
....on their official Forest Service maps....
Re: 2012-09-06 Old Vista Ridge Trail to Owl Point and Perry
miah66 replied via pm. It's his choice to post it here, or not.
Re: 2012-09-06 Old Vista Ridge Trail to Owl Point and Perry
Here it is. More recent and with more similarities than I remembered.mcds wrote: I think non-system trail stewardship of any kind is illegal. I'm thinking of a particular court case about a user foot-path that I found through the law library a few years ago when the legality question first came up. I'll see about looking it up again.
July 13, 2006
US Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit
No. 06-10142
D. C. Docket No. 05-00020-CR-01-2
Appeal from the United States District Court for the Northern District of Georgia