Cougars in Oregon

General discussions on hiking in Oregon and the Pacific Northwest
DefianceOrBust
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Re: Cougars in Oregon

Post by DefianceOrBust » April 15th, 2014, 4:27 pm

pdxgene - honest question. how is that different than hunting? people not tailoring their harvests to what the forest and lakes can provide on their own?

Aimless
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Re: Cougars in Oregon

Post by Aimless » April 15th, 2014, 4:34 pm

tailoring their harvests to what the forest and lakes can provide on their own?

It is possible that fishermen and hunters both see the goal of their self-regulation as being different than the goal you have described.

DefianceOrBust
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Re: Cougars in Oregon

Post by DefianceOrBust » April 15th, 2014, 4:36 pm

> It is possible that fishermen and hunters both see the goal of their self-regulation as being different than the goal you have described.

could be, what do you have in mind? or maybe the hunters and fishers are not very adept at self-regulating those activities? I'm not singling them out. I'm just saying they might not be any different than other industries.

Either way, it still seems like a fair question: Why do hunters complain about low population levels, and yet still buy tags for those species? If hunters believe the elk population is lower than desirable due to an over abundance of cougars, why are they hunting elk instead of making sure the cougar quotas are met?

Aimless
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Re: Cougars in Oregon

Post by Aimless » April 15th, 2014, 4:55 pm

Perhaps their goals might be described as:

1) creating the maximum number of fishing and hunting opportunities for humans, as defined by increasing the number of game animals and amount of fish stock available for them to hunt or hook, and protecting those populations from diminishing over time, and

2) distributing those many opportunities as fairly as possible among hunters and anglers.

These goals would not be entirely dependent on "what forests and lakes can provide on their own", because the very idea of actively managing fish and game populations rather eliminates the idea of the forests and lakes doing it "on their own."

Added on:

why are they hunting elk instead of making sure the cougar quotas are met?

Because elk are more desirable to hunters. They taste better. And the tags are for sale. See above, re: fair distribution.

History teaches that the best method for hunters and anglers to 'self-regulate' is to actively ask for new state-imposed regulations, because to be effective a regulation must apply to everyone. See above, re: fair distribution. This is traditionally how it has been done. It may take time for hunters and anglers to recognize the need for changes, but they often do. That is what that press release was citing and how it happened in CO.

DefianceOrBust
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Re: Cougars in Oregon

Post by DefianceOrBust » April 15th, 2014, 5:38 pm

You make some good points.

>> why are they hunting elk instead of making sure the cougar quotas are met?
> Because elk are more desirable to hunters. They taste better.

Sure, that does make sense, at least from a perspective of pure individualism.

> History teaches that the best method for hunters and anglers to 'self-regulate' is to actively ask for new state-imposed regulations, because to be effective a regulation must apply to everyone. See above, re: fair distribution. This is traditionally how it has been done. It may take time for hunters and anglers to recognize the need for changes, but they often do.

I didn't realize that hunters are lobbying for fewer elk and deer tags. Good for them. I didn't know that. I stand corrected. As an aside, I think history teaches that the way we've handled it is failing.

pdxgene
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Re: Cougars in Oregon

Post by pdxgene » April 15th, 2014, 5:40 pm

DefianceOrBust wrote:pdxgene - honest question. how is that different than hunting? people not tailoring their harvests to what the forest and lakes can provide on their own?
Once again I'm just kinda going off a fading memory here instead of taking time to look it up but I believe a lot of the lakes that get stocked do not have a natural population of catchable fish.
One definite example would be Waldo Lake. This paragraph is from Canoe and Kayak Routes of NW Oregon..
"Like most mountain lakes, Waldo Lake has no native fish population. The State of Oregon once regularly planted trout in the lake, but most of the fish perished due to lack of nutrients. Between 1938 and 1990, roughly 20 million fish were planted in Waldo Lake by the ODFW. The number that survived is indicated by a survey of anglers. In 1969, for example, a survey of thirty two anglers recorded a total catch of three fish. In the mid1960's, 600,000 freshwater shrimp were introduced in an attempt to provide a food supply for the planted fish. The shrimp didn't fare any better than the fish. In fact, the planted fish and shrimp have seriously damaged the zooplankton and amphibian populations of the lake. Although fish plantings ended in 1991, scientists are now wondering, after fifty years of failing to create a sustainable fish population, whether a lake as sterile as Waldo should have ever been the target of fish plantings and other artificial introductions in the first place. Maybe Mother Nature got it right the first time."

So with the fish it sounds like in a lot of cases there was no original population.
And it also sounds like there's always going to be unintended consequences when we mess with things no matter how well intentioned.

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Chase
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Re: Cougars in Oregon

Post by Chase » April 15th, 2014, 6:08 pm

A must-read article from the December 2013 National Geographic features this interesting finding:
Douglas Chadwick wrote:Assuming that every cougar killed means more game for sportsmen, some states cull as many cats each year as wildlife managers think the population can withstand. The toll generally falls most heavily on adult males, which hunters prize as trophies. But as the biggest, strongest cats, they hold the prime territories and force young upstarts to leave, setting an upper limit on the number of cougars in a given area.

Studies by Washington State University professor Robert Wielgus and his co-researchers have shown that when too many large males are killed, footloose young males converge on the emptied territories. Fierce competition pushes more of them to the fringes of the space, often closer to human habitation. Meanwhile, females may roam more widely to avoid the influx of unfamiliar males, which sometimes kill kittens.

Wielgus sums up his surprising findings: “Heavy hunting can result in higher overall density of cougars, increased predation on game, and more frequent conflicts with people—in short, the exact opposite of what was intended.”

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forester
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Re: Cougars in Oregon

Post by forester » April 15th, 2014, 6:18 pm

While that may be true, Chase, you miss the point that we would then get to shoot fewer cougars...

DefianceOrBust
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Re: Cougars in Oregon

Post by DefianceOrBust » April 15th, 2014, 6:30 pm

pdxgene - You could be right about most of the lakes in Oregon not having a native fish population. There are a lot of
clear waters here. I'm always a little grossed out by the algae in our mutually beloved Clear Lake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-BDnwO3fog

I'm not sure if it's arrival reflects the natural trophication that lakes go through, or due to human sanitation and the kitchen, or due to fish stocking.

https://www.google.com/#q=effect+of+fis ... on+trophic
Effects of stocking-up freshwater food webs

TRENDS in Ecology and Evolution Vol.21 No.10

The establishment of exotic game fishes to enhance recreational fisheries through authorized and unauthorized stocking into freshwater systems is a global phenomenon. Stocked fishes are often top predators that either replace native top predators or increase the species richness of top predators. Many direct effects of stocking have been documented, but the ecosystem consequences are seldom quantified. New studies increasingly document how species and community shifts influence ecosystem processes. We discuss here how predator stocking might increase top-down effects, alter nutrient cycles and decrease links between aquatic and surrounding terrestrial ecosystems. As fisheries management moves beyond species-specific utilitarian objectives to incorporate ecosystem and conservation goals, ecologists must address how common management practices alter food-web structure and subsequent ecosystem-level effects.

DefianceOrBust
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Re: Cougars in Oregon

Post by DefianceOrBust » April 15th, 2014, 7:10 pm

Chase - the other part of the equation:
page 20

http://www.dfw.state.or.us/wildlife/cou ... -Final.pdf

Anderson and Lindzey (2005) found after a 66% population reduction by hunting in Wyoming, the cougar population recovered in numbers within 3 years with about 18% of the cougar population harvested annually. Ross and Jalkotzy (1992) documented a population increase of approximately 40% in an Alberta cougar population from 1984 – 1989, following a decline in hunter harvest. Logan and Sweanor (2001) found a peak annual growth rate of 28% for adult cougars following removal of 58% of the independent cougars (adults and subadults) and the population recovered in 31 months.

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