Cougars in Oregon

General discussions on hiking in Oregon and the Pacific Northwest
DefianceOrBust
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Re: Cougars in Oregon

Post by DefianceOrBust » April 15th, 2014, 10:54 am

BCH - If I am not mistaken, I think his main point is that coming up with a single number estimate for the state's cougar population involves a huge amount of judgment, perhaps even more judgment than science. Sure, the scientific component may be first rate, but the impossibility/paucity of good data forces a significant amount of judgment, and that amount of judgement opens up a wide gap through which bias and politics may (or may not) creep in. The problem is forced by citizens/officials/reporters wanting a single number, being unsatisfied with a range, such as 4000-10000 cougars.
Last edited by DefianceOrBust on April 15th, 2014, 11:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

Lumpy
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Re: Cougars in Oregon

Post by Lumpy » April 15th, 2014, 11:04 am

I have no doubt that the vast majority of true scientists are careful in their work, and even more careful in presenting their theories. But, never forget that there are people involved that have science degrees (political science degrees some of them) that politicize the issue, some for the benefit of the animal, some for the benefit of man.

If true scientists could replace politicians, I'd be OK with that for the most part. Replace some other "leaders", too, while they're at it. Yeah, fact based and peer reviewed law and policy, that was open to being proven wrong and reinvestigate the issues? That could work well I think. But it will never happen.
"Why are you always chasing women?"
"I'll tell you as soon as I catch one!"

Aimless
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Re: Cougars in Oregon

Post by Aimless » April 15th, 2014, 11:10 am

All these numbers are is cover for a story

This is the equivalent of saying that the end result (the "story") was arrived at first and the numbers arrived at secondarily, to support the desired story. This speaks to motive and you've not presented any evidence to support this conclusion. Your evidence in this thread so far could just as easily be interpreted as ODFW using the resources at their disposal to arrive at the best estimates they could in order to meet a legal requirement to manage a population in the best way achievable. The key here being the resources at their disposal.

The experiment that would prove your conclusion would be to give ODFW unlimited resources to conduct the most thorough and accurate cougar count that human ingenuity could devise. If they refused to conduct that count or refused to release their findings or refused to act on them, then you could say that a predetermined "story" was taking precedence over the facts. I expect that ODFW would be delighted to have unlimited resources and would conduct that count with zest and determination.

DefianceOrBust
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Re: Cougars in Oregon

Post by DefianceOrBust » April 15th, 2014, 11:32 am

Some posts about hunting cougars using dogs:
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showpost ... stcount=17
A Tree hound is a hound which has been breed to tree treeing game, coons, Bobcats, Lynx, Bear and squirels.
If a dog doesn't have the ability to be a stay put tree hound he will be no good to you as a big game hound.
First decide which breed you like then buy the best you can from an established breeder who owns proven tree hounds.
Next buy a very good shocking system and never i say never let him or her chase deer.
Start running drags with scent, short at first then longer, hang your scented hide low in the tree the first few times then higher and higher.
If your dog doesn't perform well lock him up for a few days to think about it then try him again.
At the tree tie your dog and incourage him to bark at the scented hide, shake the hide, if he trees for ten minutes lower the hide and let him have a chew, Next time let him tree longer and then longer.
Introduce your dog to other hounds so he becomes confortable with other dogs because it can get pretty hairy at the tree if he is a chewer jumper or ill in anyway.
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showpost ... stcount=20
I only believe in using barn cats at one stage in a hounds life. 12-14 weeks old turn him loose were he can see the Big male barn cat clearly, Believe me the cat will not get hurt and he might not run, Imprinting your young hound to the cat scent at this stag is important but most importantly he will gain a huge amount of respect and hate by being beat up by the barn cat.
If you train with barn cats too much your dog wont give cougars any respect and there life will be short lived. First time you bay up a big cat that wont tree your hound will just bale in for a chew and die a sudden death.
They don't need live animals to be good.
I travel all over every year to field trials and night coon hunts, Good hounds are consistant if they do well at the field trials and night hunts generally they do well in hunting season for bear and cougar, now a bobcat, lynx dog that consistantly trees is at the top of the list when it comes to hound hunting ability.
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showpost ... stcount=22

First, lion hunting is not for the weak of heart in any way. A lion is the most effective killer that prowles the woods and can kill your part time hound/ couch dog in a heartbeat. Your pointer faces very little danger in a bird hunt,every lion hunt has the potential to be deadly. A dog that shows no respect to a lion will surely be killed when faced with a lion that refuses to tree. Dogs that don't have the ability to bay a lion will probably not last long either,it only takes a few minutes of silence for a Lion to go from treed to dog killer.

Starting from scratch it can be a very difficult and disappointing process trying to train hounds for Lion. Could you be unsuccessful at something for several years and still continue? So,unless you start with trained hounds or have someone with trained hounds to help, it will be difficult, very difficult. Having no previous experience with hounds further compounds the process. Then you need the equipment,vehicles,trackers,trainers,boxes and experience. Then you have to ice in your veins for the day you have to come home and tell your wife and kids that a Lion killed their pet.
and another
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showthrea ... ost1407437
Be prepared to spend some $$$$$ as you will need tracking collars, and shock collars and lots of time working you dogs on obediance before ever going hunting.

raven
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Re: Cougars in Oregon

Post by raven » April 15th, 2014, 12:26 pm

DOB has my motives right.

Aimless, the agencies often mix research with politics. Both in the studies they fund and the ways they right them up. Sometimes research is done by a team and the summary is written by the principal investigator in a way that is hard to support when you read the details. I've disagreed with conclusions based on the evidence supplied many times. If a researcher at an agency comes up with numbers that do not support the agency's point of view, do you think the report will be released? If you do, I have a bridge to sell you. And in the sciences -- any science -- studies that reach unexpected conclusions rarely get heard or published.

Harlan Bretz, the fellow who developed the theory of the release of ice age Lake Missoula as the generator of the Columbia Gorge was castigated because everyone knew at the time that no geological processes were cataclysmic.

Careful honest research in the case of lion populations leads to highly variable outcomes. Washington versus Oregon population density, for example.

RJ, I'm against hunting with dogs, with cameras, with bait and with snares. And I'm against preferentially taking the fittest and most curious animals. I suspect hunts should be rotated among units, because the pressure always being in the sane patterns affects animal distribution and grazing. What we have is a legacy system built upon a time of no restrictions and relatively few roads. If you remember, the original contention in "game management" was to get rid of all predators and to take only male ungulates. Many areas became over-browsed and carrying capacities dropped. Without predators the landscape changed botanically and in other ways.

When the Indian tribes held lands, they couldn't hunt as intensely and game refuge areas existed near boundaries of tribe control because of the threat posed by hunters of the neighboring tribe. Animals and seeds dispersing from the refuges repopulated over-exploited areas.

I think we need something like that today -- maybe a five year plan for the rotation of hunting areas, with no cameras being used in an area for the previous year before a hunt, so the hunters disperse throughout the area in their search for game.

RJ, are you in favor of hunting with drones? It will come, if it hasn't already.

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retired jerry
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Re: Cougars in Oregon

Post by retired jerry » April 15th, 2014, 2:08 pm

We definitely don't want to kill just the most genetically fit Cougars. It seems like it's difficult to find Cougars, so the most genetically fit ones will be more likely to evade.

I have never killed any animals except a couple fish, but if someone else does without adversely affecting long term sustainability, then I'm okay with it. Don't tell me the gruesome details - of hunting or the lives of wild animals.

Drones? I don't know. As long as it doesn't effect long term sustainability?

But I'm open minded to everyone's position and willing to change my opinion.

Aimless
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Re: Cougars in Oregon

Post by Aimless » April 15th, 2014, 2:11 pm

I would not dispute your contention that politics get mixed into government activities. That seems to be self-evident. It would be impossible in practice to separate the two. That doesn't prove that "all these numbers are is cover for a story." That is too big mouthful to swallow unaided.

If a researcher at an agency comes up with numbers that do not support the agency's point of view, do you think the report will be released? If you do, I have a bridge to sell you.

Whether or not your hypothetical report would be released is unknown; without evidence, any belief about the outcome is as well-substantiated as any other. You could be entirely right. From my point of view, I have no way of knowing. You are only offering me your certainty as proof, which taken by itself is not persuasive to me. Your positivity about your own rightness is just a way of selling me a different bridge you want me to buy.

I do find your arguments interesting, as far as they stand up to careful reading.

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backcountryhunter
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Re: Cougars in Oregon

Post by backcountryhunter » April 15th, 2014, 2:45 pm

Hunting with Drones is not Hunting:

From the Non-Profit I helped found:


Welcome to Backcountry Hunters and Anglers
Sportsmen Applaud Colorado Ban on Drones for Hunting

January 8, 2014

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Contact(s):
Tim Brass, Southern Rockies Coordinator, 651-206-4669
Land Tawney, Executive Director, 406-370-4325

DENVER, COLORADO — Sportsmen from Colorado and beyond today applauded the state of Colorado for moving to protect traditional, fair chase hunting by curbing the use of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (drones) to pursue wildlife.

Earlier today, the Colorado Parks & Wildlife Commission voted to make Colorado the first state where hunting tradition and fair chase are protected from civilian use of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAV’s) for hunting.

“As North America’s first conservationists, hunters have a century-old tradition of policing our own ranks,” said David Lien, Co-Chair of Colorado Backcountry Hunters & Anglers. “The regulations adopted by the CO Parks and Wildlife Commission protect our hunting traditions, by ensuring fair chase and fair distribution of wildlife.”

In response to growing concerns from sportsmen, Colorado Parks & Wildlife staff worked to develop draft regulations which were reviewed at the November Commission meeting and voted on in this week, as part of numerous other annual changes to the state’s big game regulations.

The regulations approved by the commission ban the use of Unmanned Aerial Vehicles for any hunting or scouting in Colorado. UAVs, or “drones” are increasingly popular in civilian hands and there are videos on the internet of the machines being used to spot, stalk and hunt wildlife.

“Sportsmen appreciate this commonsense, thoughtful clarification to Colorado’s regulations,” said BHA Director Land Tawney, of Missoula, Mont. “Drones have many legitimate potential uses in science, agriculture and search-and-rescue. However, hunting should remain an activity of skill and woodcraft, not just technology. If drones take off in hunting fields, it will split the ranks of hunters and everyone will lose.”

Backcountry Hunters & Anglers was the first sportsmen organization to adopt a policy calling for a ban on drones for hunting or scouting. Tawney said other states are considering drone regulations, but Colorado is the first to approve regulations on drones.

For a copy of BHA’s formal position on UAVs, visit:

http://www.backcountryhunters.org/index ... se-hunting

DefianceOrBust
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Re: Cougars in Oregon

Post by DefianceOrBust » April 15th, 2014, 3:46 pm

Many if not all industries claim to self-regulate. If this is true:

> “As North America’s first conservationists, hunters have a century-old tradition of policing our own ranks,”

... why are hunters complaining about low population levels of game yet are still buying tags for those species? Same for fishers, why do lakes need to be stocked?

pdxgene
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Re: Cougars in Oregon

Post by pdxgene » April 15th, 2014, 4:12 pm

I could easily be wrong but I think lakes are mainly stocked to create recreation opportunities, and of course revenue also. Not because of overfishing or excess fishing licenses sold.. Plus they need someplace to put all those hatchery fish :)

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